“The context must always call the dogma into question”
Interview with Esther and Dimitrios Tsatsas by Gerrit Terstiege
The Frankfurt couple Tsatsas designs and produces contemporary, minimalist leather bags, suitcases, and accessories in its own name. Since 2018, TSATSAS has also made handbags, using a design Dieter Rams originally did for his wife Ingeborg. The understated product enhanced the German-Greek fashion label’s international reputation.
Simple, black clothing as a clear signal: Dimitrios and Esther Tsatsas, portrayed by their friend and colleague Gerhardt Kellermann.
© TSATSAS
GT: You founded TSATSAS 12 years ago. At the time, it was necessary to create a brand with its own identity from nothing, so to speak. What were the particular challenges in the early years?
ET: I think the biggest challenge for us was that we didn’t come from a fashion background. My background was in architecture and Dimitrios in product design. Suddenly finding our way in the fashion world was one of the biggest challenges—and, to a certain extent, it still is today. Fashion is a system with its own laws. More fast-moving than product design. Very trend-orientated. And that’s not at all the way we think, or the way we want to work. If you come from architecture, you think long-term.
Catalog title and page of a publication by the German Leather Museum about TSATSAS, published in 2022 by Inez Florschütz on the occasion of an exhibition about the duo's bags and accessories. Photos: Dimitrios Tsatsas
© TSATSAS
GT: The designs created under your label are characterised by great clarity—also a rather rare quality in the fashion business. Were clean lines and simplicity your goals formally from the outset?
DT: Essentially, yes. Although the idea of creating a brand derived from this attitude emerged gradually as a process. The initial inspiration for this was the Lucid bag, which stemmed from a personal need. I couldn’t find anything comparable anywhere at the time. I wanted a practical bag that was also very simple, elegant, and modern. Since my father has his own leather workshop, I naturally have certain expectations in terms of production and materiality. This is how the idea of designing the bag myself came about. It had to also be without that heritage touch, that classic masculinity that was in fashion at the time. And we realised then that we had to think about the product in a completely different way—and not just from a design perspective. What happens when one leaves things out? If one wants to have it completely reduced? Even pared-down products have to be crafted detail by detail. Sometimes one has to find new ways to do exactly that. And this process ultimately led to the identity of the brand TSATSAS being formed.
GT: That’s an interesting aspect that you point out when you talk about omission in the design process. Because that shows that Rams’ well-known credo ‘less, but better’ also entails a struggle for simplicity and that it is not something that falls into your lap. And the elements that were deliberately left out of the design process are plainly not visible in the final product … Which brings me back to your claim: ‘context over dogma’. What does it mean exactly?
DT: The context must always call the dogma into question.
ET: Although we often end up back at dogma after all our deliberations! (laughs)
The striking photographic language that accompanies the products contributes strongly to the TSATSAS brand image.
Photo: Dimitrios Tsatsas
© TSATSAS
DT: Exactly. We don’t want to change from season to season. The term ‘dogma’ refers to guidelines or a frameset, which is very relevant for us. Nevertheless, a certain amount of flexibility is required. One example that comes to mind in this context is a suitcase project: as a dogma, we have always used dark blue lamb nappa leather to line our handbags. However, putting a white shirt in a suitcase that is made of dark leather, for example, could lead to the unfounded concern that the leather may stain. In this case, the context prevails. A suitcase is not a handbag. One should be able to carry white items in it without having to worry.
ET: When we started out, our approach was that there should be no logo on the outside of our bags. Later, we used small logo stickers on prototypes to test how this could work. To our surprise, this often looked much better because a logo also structures a surface and defines the look of the product.
GT: Careful logo placement—another area where one can learn a lot from Rams. He discreetly moved the Braun logo to the back of the T 3 pocket radio. The muted appearance was and is more his style than the loud one. And he regards an excessively large logo as being synonymous with loudness or even that it shouts his own name … Today, good design is not just formal elegance but also sustainability. How do you fulfil these criteria?
ET: The fact that we produce in Germany, with our own employees that we directly select, means that we can manage the production conditions very well. For us, sustainability starts with the materials we use. It takes thorough research to be able to make the right decisions. We visited trade fairs, found the best zips, selected the best leathers and so on. Actually, we have continued doing that to this day.
DT: All this with the main objective that true sustainability is ultimately defined by the lifespan of a product. We view design as a form of sustainability: if a product has no visual expiry date and isn’t tied to trends, it can become a personal companion and be used for years to come. Everything is based on this idea.
The 931 bag was originally a private design by Dieter Rams, intended as a “homage and declaration of love” (Rams quote) to his wife Ingeborg. It is not uncommon for TSATSAS to present the 931 together with Braun and Vitsœ products designed by Rams.
Photo: Gerhardt Kellermann
© TSATSAS
GT: The penultimate design in Dieter Rams’ catalogue raisonné is the ladies’ handbag 931, which you produce. How did the partnership actually come about? And how do your customers react to the design?
DT: Right at the beginning, when the bag was being launched, a big article appeared in the New York Times. It became apparent that there is a huge fan base for Dieter Rams in New York.
ET: The starting point was initially a cooperation with Lore Kramer with whom, and together with her daughter, we relaunched a historical design by her late husband, the famous Frankfurt architect Ferdinand Kramer. In three sizes and three colours. This project caught the attention of Britte Siepenkothen, the long-time board member of the Dieter and Ingeborg Rams Foundation. She contacted us at some point and told us about a completely unknown bag that Dieter designed for his wife in 1963. There are only two of them in existence and she said she would be happy to show them to us.
The women's handbag 931 fits convincingly alongside other Rams designs from the 1960s and 1970s.
Photo: Gerhardt Kellermann
© TSATSAS
GT: And you simply produced them unchanged?
ET: Almost. The original bag didn’t have a shoulder strap. We found a way to integrate such a strap without changing the overall design. And, also in consultation with Dieter Rams, we created a zip compartment on the inside – as experience has shown that this is something that is very much in demand today. But these were the only elements that we suggested. However, in terms of the proportions, how it looks, the complete design – of course we didn’t touch that.
GT: In addition to the 931 in black and light grey, there is now another option in olive green.
ET: As an alternative to the black version, our suggestion of a grey version appealed to him. Derived from the colour of his Vitsœ shelving system elements. And the green we mentioned is based exactly on a colour from the range of leather covers in his 620 armchair series.
GT: Such steps are logical and understandable. However, in many of the photos of the Rams bag, you also create a visual link to the past with certain Braun appliances or by combining the 931 with other Rams designs. Your photographic language plays a special role on your website, on Instagram, and in an exhibition catalogue published in 2022. It is sometimes factual and sometimes sensual, but never merely promotional. How did you develop this important visual aspect of your branding?
ET: When we founded TSATSAS, we started working with the photographer and industrial designer Gerhardt Kellermann, one of our closest friends. Together with him, we developed our own special look for our collection that is very different from commercial fashion photography. Our goal is always to emphasise the character of each product through photography and bring that to the fore. Gradually, Dimitrios began to photograph our collection more frequently—staging the products and visually accentuating their specific characteristics. It was also easy for us, as we created these objects ourselves and nobody understands and can convey them as deeply as we do.
Esther and Dimitrios Tsatsas in conversation with the British architect David Chipperfield. Together with him they developed the SUIT-CASE and other related leather bags and accessories.
Product photo: Gerhardt Kellermann, group photo: Alexander Kilian, both:
© TSATSAS
GT: Another important cooperation has been underway for some time with the British Pritzker Prize winner David Chipperfield …
DT: Yes, exactly. Another great designer and architect, though the two projects are not comparable from our point of view. After all, the Rams bag had already been designed. We started from scratch with David Chipperfield. Our collaboration began with his longstanding and fruitless search for the ideal suitcase. The suitcase had to be the size of hand luggage and offer enough space for a two- to three-day trip and a suit that David Chipperfield always carries with him. The design work involved a constant dialogue between him and us, which included physical meetings and workshops as well as the exchange of sketches and models. Once the first prototype of the SUIT-CASE was completed, he began travelling and testing the design. This developed into a process of use and optimisation phases, which, partly due to Covid, lasted a total of three years. One of the key points was weight optimisation, which enabled us to produce a full leather case weighing just 2.7 kilos.
Designing bags is all about proportions, closure mechanisms and details. Esther and Dimitrios Tsatsas prefer paper and cardboard to quickly create their first models.
Photo: Gerhardt Kellermann
© TSATSAS
GT: Similar to Konstantin Grcic, the design process for your bags often begins with models made of paper and cardboard to test out proportions and functions. Are these classic, simple materials still superior to digital design techniques?
DT: Yes, definitely. We don’t use any digital techniques in either the design process or in production. We sketch a lot and we do it quickly, constantly exchanging ideas, and then we swiftly move on to three-dimensionality. Here, we work with simple paper models or objects made of fabric so that we can directly define proportions and train the eye for the relevant details of a design. Digital techniques could never help us here. Instead, they tend to slow down creativity through set processes and tools. Above all, we would not want to do without chance as an important element of the design process—many of our best designs have been created through trial and error, through constant testing and discarding. And no TSATSAS product has ever actually been finalised and implemented as per the initial sketch.
Bending, folding, gluing: Instead of digital renderings, the Frankfurt couple uses paper and cardboard to check the formal and functional coherence of their concepts.
Photo: Gerhardt Kellermann
© TSATSAS
GT: What are your plans for the future? For example, are you aiming to work together with other well-known designers?
DT: There are a number of things in planning, but it will take some time before we are able to talk about new projects. In any case, we are continuing our collaborations with existing project partners, such as Kostas Murkudis, Chipperfield and Kvadrat and we are working intensively …
GT: In closing, do you have any advice for young designers who want to become entrepreneurs with their own production?
ET: Work, work, work constantly. Always question things, test them, discard them, try them out. Never stand still. And master your own craft—the deeper your knowledge, the further you get.
More Contributions
Duy Phong Vu and Markus Orthey
In our interview with entrepreneur Fabio De’Longhi, it became clear how important it is to him to maintain the Braun culture and tradition. Duy Phong Vu and Markus Orthey, two designers who have long been the shaping present-day version of Braun Household, while also developing it for the future, now share their thoughts.
Jürgen Werner Braun
The achievements of the long-standing Managing Director Jürgen Werner Braun in terms of design in Germany in general and his commitment to the Franz Schneider Brakel company in particular continue to have an impact to this day. Here he talks about how design exhibitions can provide concrete impetus for the economy. And why, for him, Stanley Kubrick anticipated artificial intelligence.
Jonathan Ive Interview
Numerous international designers have expressed how much Dieter Rams‘ work means to them. But the impact of what Jonathan Ive did through words and actions for the Braun design revival of the Rams era was and is immense and ensures a worldwide response—to this day. Time for an interview with the long-time Apple design chief.
/magazin/interviews/tsatsas/
