Portrait of long-time Apple design chief Jonathan Ive, taken in 2022 by British photographer and filmmaker Alasdair McLellan.
© Alasdair McLellan
“He articulated the way it should be”
Interview with Jonathan Ive by Gerrit Terstiege
Jonathan Ive, the long-time Chief Design Officer at Apple, is among the most prominent creatives who have been influenced by Dieter Rams and his design principles. Here, in one of his rare interviews in recent years, Ive speaks openly about his admiration—pointing out one important achievement of Rams that is often overlooked.
His parents' citromatic MPZ 2 was Ive's first contact with a Braun product. It was designed by Jürgen Greubel, Dieter Rams and Gabriel Lluelles in 1972.
© rams foundation
GT: In your foreword to Sophie Lovell’s book „Dieter Rams: As Little Design as Possible“, you write about the very first Braun product that entered your parents’ home: the citromatic MPZ 2. I recently acquired one because I wanted to understand what exactly triggered your admiration. I must say, it does have the appeal of a small sculpture
JI: Yeah, I think the fact that I remember it so clearly speaks to the fact that somehow it resonated with me: the different elements and characteristics of the design. But remember, I was a small boy. I wasn’t particularly interested in its primary function. As much as I can remember I wasn’t a big juicing fan. But there is something beguiling and seductive about objects that are single-purposed and that are mechanical. There is such a coherence in the object: its appearance, its construction, the materials of its construction and what it actually does. Now more than ever, products like that are extremely rare. This was a time where it was more commonplace that you could understand a product’s reason for being, its function, by understanding its form. So simple and clear. I do remember its weight. I think there is something about its relationship to the ground. It’s very important how an object connects to the ground. That defines your sense of the object in many ways.
Apple's first iPod, designed by Jonathan Ive, attracted attention with bright white casing colour.
© Apple
What about it being white? This just jumped up in my mind, but for example the whiteness of the iPod enhanced it being a totally unique object. White can be very ordinary, and white can be very special.
JI: You know, some people think about the absence of colour when they think of white or black. That is true with black. But with white, of course, it’s every colour.
I know that Dieter talks about the sort of deference of white and it being part of the characteristic and attribute of a product that is there when you need it and disappears when you don’t. Almost without exception all my work at art school—I just worked in white. White is recessive, very clear and very strong and also deferring to form. Of course, it depends on what material you’re working in and so, you know, if you’re working and developing products in metal for example, it is very important that the relationship between the colour and the material is authentic.
And so, white in a polymer, in a resin—there’s an integrity to that. But if you’re working in aluminium, to achieve something that is white means using a series of coatings. Now that seems a pity: to coat an intrinsically beautiful material.
Jony Ive sent Dieter Rams this iPhone—here Rams shows the calculator app: a digital homage to the Braun calculators designed by Dietrich Lubs and himself.
© Gerrit Terstiege, 2009
GT: Your admiration for Braun products and for Dieter Rams became very obvious to the world in 2007, when the first iPhone came out. Its calculator app appeared as a charming nod, or as a witty homage, to the Braun calculators by Rams and Dietrich Lubs. But I always wondered how that came to be …
JI: It’s important to remember the time and the place. And this was a time when we were developing a user interface that could change very specifically along with the application. And so, for the first time you could really have an interface and all of the buttons and all of the display that was specific to the application. And the buttons weren’t physical, by definition. So, the nod to not only the graphic appearance, but the layout of the Braun calculator, was particularly affectionate: an acknowledgement of the wonderful work of Braun and of Dieter Rams.
GT: Very charming indeed. But you know that it triggered a lot of other comparisons. For example, the one with the T3 radio: the combination of a circle and a rectangular shape on the front reminded some of the front interface of the iPod. And once people were put on that trail, they started to compare a lot of other Apple products with old Braun products. But I can’t imagine you sitting in your design studio looking at a bunch of old Braun products thinking: ‘Now, okay, what do we do next?’ (laughs)
JI: No. I mean, of course not. (laughs) Nothing could be further from the truth. Not that I’ve done this, but I’m sure if you put the two products together, I’m sure they would be seen as completely different. Because there was no connection. But the connection is that Dieter Rams’ philosophy and principles translated into actual products that so resonated with me when I was studying design. That is what I and so many designers owe Dieter. He articulated the way it should be. Do remember that industrial design, product design, is still a practice in its infancy. Dieter Rams in so many ways articulated the framework for the profession that was inspirational and responsible. He described the way as designers that we could work with care and dedication, but also in a responsible way and use our resources and the Earth’s resources carefully and thoughtfully.
Clear design of Apple iMacs in different sizes. Design: Jony Ive.
© Apple
GT: Since you are chancellor of the Royal College of Art, I would like to know about your thoughts regarding the relationship between art and design. In some design schools those fields are quite close and related, in other design schools they are strictly separated. In Germany, this issue was a major dispute both at the Bauhaus in Weimar and at the HfG in Ulm. What is your opinion regarding art and design?
JI: I’ve always seen design as one of the applied arts. I think there are substantial and significant overlaps. I mean the practice of creating, of course, is at the heart of fine art and of applied art. The importance of our thinking and ideas is foundational to both spaces. The differences start when we look at what the motivations and goals are. Art may be very specifically about expression of ideas and self-expression. I see what my practice is—it’s about creating essentially tools in the service of humanity. But the overlaps are substantial and really significant. I’ve always found it incredibly important to see these overlaps as something that is nothing but positive. I find it hard to accept the constraints and very often artificial barriers that are put in place that suggest this is the area that you should work in—and you shouldn’t work over here. But still, it’s important to be very clear about the area of your primary expertise and as you crossover into other areas that there is a genuine deference and an awareness. Working with a diverse group of creatives has always been fundamentally important to me.
In 2023, Ive refined the Sondek LP12-50 turntable for the Scottish hi-fi company Linn.
© Linn
GT: You have been at the RCA for seven years now. What are the challenges for this new generation of designers?
JI: Well, I do think that with the invention of the silicon chip and with the integrated circuit, we moved from an age of products that we could understand by their mechanical function and form. Designers have a role now that is really quite challenging in terms of trying to figure out how to give meaning to the physical objects that are around us that most people do not understand how they work and, in many ways, what they can do. From an industrial designer’s perspective, I think that the challenges are really significant in that your experience of an object is both mechanical and physical, but it is also a soft interface. We’re in an age now where the way that we relate to our physical environment is extremely complex. If we don’t have some sense of an understanding of the objects that we’re surrounded by, it causes us different degrees of anxiety. You tend to not dominate something if you don’t understand it. And I think there are challenges that are a consequence of where we are, from a technology point of view. And then, of course, there are the challenges that are associated with how we can carefully and responsibly use resources. How we can actually build the products and objects that we use, how we can maintain them. The challenges are extraordinary and I have become—perhaps over the last couple of decades—more and more aware of being part of a profession and having a practice that is still very new. I have become very aware of just the rate of change that is so extraordinarily fast. It’s wonderfully challenging, but it’s certainly challenging to respond and keep up with just understanding what the problems truly are, let alone actually trying to attempt to make a contribution to their resolution. The challenges are so complex that I feel, more than ever, that collaboration and working with a diverse group of creatives is extremely important. The days of being able to work in an isolated and singular way—I think those days are long gone.
At the invitation of Jonathan Ive, Dieter Rams visited the Apple design team in Cupertino. On the far right: Vitsœ-CEO Mark Adams.
© Apple
GT: The very close relationship you had with Steve Jobs always reminded me of the very close relationship Dieter Rams had with Erwin Braun in the 1950s and 60s. How important is it that CEOs speak directly to designers—not top down, but in a way that leaves room for freedom, creativity and exchange?
JI: That’s a really interesting observation and one that I think Dieter and I had talked about. I think it was fundamental to the work that he did and it was fundamental to my work. It is that collaboration with the founder/CEO that is critically important. It’s very important not to see design as making a contribution at one point in time that’s generally associated with giving an appearance to a product. Design is such a powerful word. It means everything and so means nothing. And our practice of design really was the whole thing. Ultimately, it was your experience. From the very founding ideas of what the product is and what it does and how it’s architected and how it’s built—its appearance is just one small part of the whole thing. And I do not know any other way than working directly and very closely with the leader of the entire organization. I don’t know any other way that will lead to and yield products that are holistic and not just an assembly of a bunch of different discreet ideas and philosophies and beliefs. A product really stands testament to how it was designed and made. With so many products you can see that it was essentially a compromise and the product really speaks to a whole slew of different areas of expertise fighting to become prominent. Truly great products are those that speak to a harmony in how you bring together all these different areas of concern. I mean, harmony makes it sound like it’s a soft and gentle thing … to achieve that, is extremely hard. Without doubt, the best products that I’ve used and I’ve experienced are those that really stand testament to that level of very deep integration and that starts with the designer working very closely with the leader of the company.
Apple co-founder Steve Jobs in 2007 presenting the first iPhone.
© Apple
GT: Do you remember Steve Jobs speaking about Dieter Rams and Braun design?
JI: Interestingly, we would talk more about philosophy and approach than specific products. One of the things that Dieter Rams, I think, doesn’t get credit for, is the way that he innovated with process. Now of course, the way that that is ultimately manifest, is with the products. But the work that he did—in terms of building an expert team of industrial designers and architects and graphic designers and the way that they practiced within the company of Braun—that process is often not seen. Obviously, for understandable reasons. But to build teams and define the process is extremely hard, and so, of course it’s measured by the output, which are the wonderful products. It’s important to remember that when you don’t have precedent, when you don’t have prototypes that you can point to, it requires a particular energy and a particular vision and a particular resolve to make something new. And I think that was something that Steve and I talked about: that the way we work is very important. And we were aware that working in a new way without precedent or prototype, was demanding.
GT: My last question: Do you have a favourite Braun or Vitsœ product? Do you collect Rams designs?
JI: I’m not sure if ‘collector’ is the right word, but I’m an owner of many Braun products.
GT: Like what?
JI: Actually, I think I can see two or three behind you which I own as well. (laughs) But rather than a specific product, I think one of the most remarkable achievements of Dieter Rams is the body of the work. It’s the collection of the work. To make one thing well is an achievement. To design 400 is extraordinary. To me, his body of work speaks to such a clear sense of how it should be. It speaks to such a clear sense of, you know: this is my role in this process. This is how we should regard our work. And it’s the fact that Dieter Rams was able to so consistently manifest his philosophy and his values across a broad range of products. To me, that’s breathtaking.
GT: Okay, but what if you could take one, just one of his products to the famous remote island … what would it be? Would it be a record player or a shaver?
JI: I really couldn’t just choose one. There are too many that are too good to just choose one.
GT: Okay, well, I would take his world receiver. If I had to move to a lonely island, that’s for sure. (laughs)
JI: I would certainly take that over a shaver or a juicer, yeah. (laughs)
More Contributions
Fabio De'Longhi
In 2012, the family-run De’Longhi Group took over the Braun Household division. In our interview, Fabio De’Longhi talks about how he sees Dieter Rams‘ legacy and what he expects from the future in terms of design, production methods and management strategies.
Jasper Morrison
Similar to Dieter Rams, one of Jasper Morrison’s grandfathers played a crucial role in his development as a designer. Here the British designer talks about his early, experimental years as a student in Berlin in the 1980s. And about how he classifies today’s phenomena such as retro design and AI.
Lord Norman Foster
Lord Norman Foster on Dieter Rams: “His work is in many ways quite witty. The touches of colour, the changes of contrast. It’s wonderfully optimistic. There’s a lightness of touch. There’s an elegance.”
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